Sigh. War.
Looks like “the president of peace” has finally managed to start an actual war.
Venezuela capitulated too easily for his liking, I guess.
Venezuela capitulated too easily for his liking, I guess.
The United States really is Israel’s puppet.
And boy those Epstein files must be damning.
And while all that’s happening, they are locking down the internet globally and using neural networks to spy on us at an unprecedented magnitude.
And boy those Epstein files must be damning.
And while all that’s happening, they are locking down the internet globally and using neural networks to spy on us at an unprecedented magnitude.
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I was with you Ganado until that last part lmao. Though I don't know what country you live in so maybe that's true for you.
Uuhhhh yeah I might’ve written that in a rash way, I should have said “attempting to”, and government mass surveillance/AI is only tangentially related to war in the Middle East, so ignore that last part, perhaps I’ll make another thread to explain. For now I’ll just say I miss the old internet and I feel like this forum represents a small slice of the old internet.
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Mass surveillance is definitely not something I'm happy about - and how deep it goes uncertain. Can they read our E2E encrypted messages, for example?
I trust that with my iPhone, probably not. But Android? I have no idea. Google is too comfortable giving in to government demands than I like - and I hate relying on private companies having a backbone for privacy.
And of course Anthropic just refused to allow Claude to be used for mass surveillance, which is absolutely insane for the government to ask. Even more insane how mainstream media just glazes over these things.
If Biden wanted to try mass surveillance, the right would have exploded this planet.
I trust that with my iPhone, probably not. But Android? I have no idea. Google is too comfortable giving in to government demands than I like - and I hate relying on private companies having a backbone for privacy.
And of course Anthropic just refused to allow Claude to be used for mass surveillance, which is absolutely insane for the government to ask. Even more insane how mainstream media just glazes over these things.
If Biden wanted to try mass surveillance, the right would have exploded this planet.
There’s a fabulous video of Obama giving a talk where he basically says just that.
Lemme see if I can find it...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xvriwMCa7rE
He said that before Trump went bat-schnizitt insane. Imagine if he had done half the crap Trump does now. We’d be in a second civil war right now.
Israel is not controlling the US. Interests in the Middle East align to the point that the US supports Israel, and Israel has every right to exist, but it has been corrupted by Netanyahu and his cronies as much as we are corrupt by corporate power interests. He took justifiable anger and turned it into war crimes to support his continued self-powered interests.
Just like Trump is doing.
Lemme see if I can find it...
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/xvriwMCa7rE
He said that before Trump went bat-schnizitt insane. Imagine if he had done half the crap Trump does now. We’d be in a second civil war right now.
Israel is not controlling the US. Interests in the Middle East align to the point that the US supports Israel, and Israel has every right to exist, but it has been corrupted by Netanyahu and his cronies as much as we are corrupt by corporate power interests. He took justifiable anger and turned it into war crimes to support his continued self-powered interests.
Just like Trump is doing.
The issue with Israel is that they are extremely opportunistic and self-interested. They need to be reigned in, they won't reign themselves in.
They could be a powerful ally, but instead we are their powerful ally.
Complete stupidity, and it seems not a small part of the government allows this because of some crazy Biblical Israel nonsense they're trying to uphold. Going as far as to say God would abandon the U.S. if the U.S. abandons Israel.
Would be funny if it wasn't so stupid.
EDIT: All this not to mention Israel happily commits war crimes under the protection of the U.S., which apparently not a single republican takes any issue with.
They could be a powerful ally, but instead we are their powerful ally.
Complete stupidity, and it seems not a small part of the government allows this because of some crazy Biblical Israel nonsense they're trying to uphold. Going as far as to say God would abandon the U.S. if the U.S. abandons Israel.
Would be funny if it wasn't so stupid.
EDIT: All this not to mention Israel happily commits war crimes under the protection of the U.S., which apparently not a single republican takes any issue with.
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Israel has long been one of the few nations on earth that actively prosecuted its own military for war crimes. All that “crazy biblical nonsense” is not stuff that Israel wants or supports — they just want the right to exist and not be murdered.
If the people you bought your house from were to move in next door and start shooting at you and killing your dogs and children because you’re in their house and the police refused to do anything about it then I don’t think anyone in their right mind would hold you very accountable for raining destruction upon them.
Palestine could long have been a state of its own, with Israel’s blessing, if wicked people hadn’t sabotaged it at every critical step. And now we live in a day where every “Palestinian” under 25 years old was raised to rabidly hate Israelis as demons, and Israeli children have been raised to see them as untrustworthy, bloodthirsty monsters, yet we sympathize with the poor pathetic Palestinians just trying to survive under the Evil Oppressive Israelis and hate the people who are literally saved from rocket fire on a daily basis by US-backed technology.
We hate them for wanting their people back after an outrageously egregious war-crime attack on their nation, and for saying, essentially, "Enough is enough.”
We feel smug about our righteousness on the matter, yet when a handful of wicked people destroyed a couple buildings in NYC and we went on a 22-year rampage against anyone we wanted in the Middle East, spreading destruction and destabilization to the entire region and killing nearly a million innocent people.
Funny how few people were willing to speak up against that, and fewer today.
Funny how Israel is somehow hated for everything they’ve ever done, and even a whole bunch of imagined stuff they never did.
So yeah, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that more violent policies are now popular. It doesn’t make them right, but the BS anti-zionist garbage that people the world over harbor in their hearts for Israeli people is another sign of our stupidity. And the refusal to recognize that failure in ourselves when plainly presented with the unflattering fact condemns us as bigots and hypocrites.
Sure, the a-holes committing war crimes need to be removed. But before we go and eviscerate a people literally trying not to be murdered every day by what should be their friendly neighbors, maybe we should fix our own ass-backward problems and stand up against Trump and his fascist war-mongering bullcrap, and do something about the fact that our own country has been stolen from us. Maybe we should finally chuck him and his cronies in prison for starting a war without Congress’s approval, against the will of the people. (It’s literally Treason, as defined by section 3 of the Constitution!)
We won’t, though, because people think Carlin was a comedy act.
Rich, blood-sucking, war mongering, elites tell us how to think and we’re too dumb to realize that we’ve been living 1984 for years. The America that we grew up believing in as we were taught in primary school doesn’t exist. We worship a dead form. And Orwell and Carlin and many others have been telling us for near-on a 100 years that it was happening, and we’re just don’t believe it or give a damn. And those that do either shut up when properly threatened or disappear.
We only care now because we’re being sucked dry faster than we like.
Don’t worry though. Give it a few years and we’ll get used to it and it’ll be come the new normal.
Republicans and Democrats are the same thing. They just don’t know it.
If the people you bought your house from were to move in next door and start shooting at you and killing your dogs and children because you’re in their house and the police refused to do anything about it then I don’t think anyone in their right mind would hold you very accountable for raining destruction upon them.
Palestine could long have been a state of its own, with Israel’s blessing, if wicked people hadn’t sabotaged it at every critical step. And now we live in a day where every “Palestinian” under 25 years old was raised to rabidly hate Israelis as demons, and Israeli children have been raised to see them as untrustworthy, bloodthirsty monsters, yet we sympathize with the poor pathetic Palestinians just trying to survive under the Evil Oppressive Israelis and hate the people who are literally saved from rocket fire on a daily basis by US-backed technology.
We hate them for wanting their people back after an outrageously egregious war-crime attack on their nation, and for saying, essentially, "Enough is enough.”
We feel smug about our righteousness on the matter, yet when a handful of wicked people destroyed a couple buildings in NYC and we went on a 22-year rampage against anyone we wanted in the Middle East, spreading destruction and destabilization to the entire region and killing nearly a million innocent people.
Funny how few people were willing to speak up against that, and fewer today.
Funny how Israel is somehow hated for everything they’ve ever done, and even a whole bunch of imagined stuff they never did.
So yeah, it doesn’t surprise me in the least that more violent policies are now popular. It doesn’t make them right, but the BS anti-zionist garbage that people the world over harbor in their hearts for Israeli people is another sign of our stupidity. And the refusal to recognize that failure in ourselves when plainly presented with the unflattering fact condemns us as bigots and hypocrites.
Sure, the a-holes committing war crimes need to be removed. But before we go and eviscerate a people literally trying not to be murdered every day by what should be their friendly neighbors, maybe we should fix our own ass-backward problems and stand up against Trump and his fascist war-mongering bullcrap, and do something about the fact that our own country has been stolen from us. Maybe we should finally chuck him and his cronies in prison for starting a war without Congress’s approval, against the will of the people. (It’s literally Treason, as defined by section 3 of the Constitution!)
We won’t, though, because people think Carlin was a comedy act.
Rich, blood-sucking, war mongering, elites tell us how to think and we’re too dumb to realize that we’ve been living 1984 for years. The America that we grew up believing in as we were taught in primary school doesn’t exist. We worship a dead form. And Orwell and Carlin and many others have been telling us for near-on a 100 years that it was happening, and we’re just don’t believe it or give a damn. And those that do either shut up when properly threatened or disappear.
We only care now because we’re being sucked dry faster than we like.
Don’t worry though. Give it a few years and we’ll get used to it and it’ll be come the new normal.
Republicans and Democrats are the same thing. They just don’t know it.
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"Israel has long been one of the few nations on earth that actively prosecuted its own military for war crimes."
Well, could have fooled me! I thought they were ordering the war crimes.
Sure, but it's more like you were living in a house, someone bought the house from an absentee landlord, and now you have to leave - pretty much entirely out of your control.
This is not to mention most of their displacement was through fighting - not purchases.
Now clearly both sides were gearing up for war - and the entire mess was much the fault of the U.N. and U.S.'s poor handling of everything.
But you cannot fault the people originally living on the land for not wanting to let it go.
The issue here is that I would say Israel has had the facade of talks - but purposefully keeps negotiations just unpalatable enough that the Arabs cannot accept.
Even when the Arabs had a good deal on the table - it was during an election where the next ruler would have no real obligation to honor the deal.
The problem is the power imbalance. If Palestinians give up any land then Israel does not hold up their end - what happens? Will Israel be punished? By who? Then the Arabs have given up valuable bargaining power for nothing.
I would not say this is true. Democrats are faced with a tough position. Its hard to push progressive policies when you're fighting over whether climate change is even real or not.
Not that I'm happy with Democrats, its not like I think every single democrat is an angel - but definitely good democrats in there. I cannot find a single good Republican. Only Thomas Massie seems to be the only man of some integrity in the republican party - and I would probably not agree with him on a single policy position.
Funny enough, Israel doesn't even give reasons anymore for delaying Netanyahu's trial lmao. I guess they figure no one cares.
Well, could have fooled me! I thought they were ordering the war crimes.
| If the people you bought your house from were to move in next door and start shooting at you and killing your dogs and children because you’re in their house and the police refused to do anything about it then I don’t think anyone in their right mind would hold you very accountable for raining destruction upon them. |
Sure, but it's more like you were living in a house, someone bought the house from an absentee landlord, and now you have to leave - pretty much entirely out of your control.
This is not to mention most of their displacement was through fighting - not purchases.
Now clearly both sides were gearing up for war - and the entire mess was much the fault of the U.N. and U.S.'s poor handling of everything.
But you cannot fault the people originally living on the land for not wanting to let it go.
| Palestine could long have been a state of its own, with Israel’s blessing, if wicked people hadn’t sabotaged it at every critical step |
The issue here is that I would say Israel has had the facade of talks - but purposefully keeps negotiations just unpalatable enough that the Arabs cannot accept.
Even when the Arabs had a good deal on the table - it was during an election where the next ruler would have no real obligation to honor the deal.
The problem is the power imbalance. If Palestinians give up any land then Israel does not hold up their end - what happens? Will Israel be punished? By who? Then the Arabs have given up valuable bargaining power for nothing.
| Republicans and Democrats are the same thing. They just don’t know it. |
I would not say this is true. Democrats are faced with a tough position. Its hard to push progressive policies when you're fighting over whether climate change is even real or not.
Not that I'm happy with Democrats, its not like I think every single democrat is an angel - but definitely good democrats in there. I cannot find a single good Republican. Only Thomas Massie seems to be the only man of some integrity in the republican party - and I would probably not agree with him on a single policy position.
| Sure, the a-holes committing war crimes need to be removed |
Funny enough, Israel doesn't even give reasons anymore for delaying Netanyahu's trial lmao. I guess they figure no one cares.
You believe a backwards version of Israel’s history — you are reduplicating the anti-Israel propaganda.
I cannot see how we can continue a conversation about it if basic facts are a matter of dispute.
I cannot see how we can continue a conversation about it if basic facts are a matter of dispute.
| You believe a backwards version of Israel’s history — you are reduplicating the anti-Israel propaganda. I cannot see how we can continue a conversation about it if basic facts are a matter of dispute. |
I'm more than happy to hash out the details of the history - I've looked into it a lot but it's possible I could misunderstand something. Here's what I know:
WW2 -> The world felt bad for Jews due to their suffering in Germany and were being granted land to start their own country - a favor essentially.
Britain had control over the land from the fall of the Ottoman Empire and offered to split the land with the natives and the incoming Jews. The Arabs in the area were promised their own country by the British just as the Jews - and of course they already lived there.
Without any real negotiating or bargaining power, the Arabs found that the Jewish people were coming into their land and settling. The Jews had an upper hand - organized and funded. The Arabs in the area did not have any such advantage, and found themselves getting displaced forcibly through sales that were legal (absentee landlords) - but entirely out of their control.
The U.N., Britain, and the U.S. tried to get both sides to agree to terms, but generally were light-handed, negotiated heavily with the Jews, and gave the native Arabs terms that they had little to no part in negotiating.
The Arabs rejected deals (that in hindsight they probably should have accepted) - while Britain and the U.N. started washing their hands of the situation.
As soon as the parents left the room, the Arabs and Jews went to war - a war that both sides had been preparing for, but with Jews having an advantage in their prep.
This lead to the domination of the area by the Jews. Ever since, both sides have been at constant battle. Israel puts on a facade of negotiations that, by my estimate, are purposefully driven to go no where. Israel refuses to make a deal that a proud people would accept, refuses be consistent with giving final terms and maps in writing, then they raise their hands in the air and claim they tried.
The idea that killing your enemy is a valid option when your enemy is the native population is what leads to "genocide", similar to what happened with the native Americans when the British came.
The issue is that peace has to come from Israel - as they have all the power in this dynamic, but they refuse to try for peace in good faith while they have the U.S. on their side unconditionally.
Ever since, there's been blockades and strict rules. Palestinians work as part of the Israeli economy but they don't necessary see the fruits of their labor - some would call it slavery.
Israel never even attempts to negotiate with Hamas for peace. And the one time they did try, they instead precision strike the negotiators while they're in Qatar, hoping to negotiate peace terms with Israel.
Israel says they cannot negotiate with Hamas - because they are unruly terrorists, but will happily negotiate with Hamas about literally anything and everything other than peace talks.
My claim here is: What would you do if you're Palestine and your goal is not to just survive, but to have your own sovereign country - a goal worth dying for.
Do you lay down your arms? Your terrorism is your only card to play. A dog without teeth and claws is a helpless dog. What would happen to them? Peace? Slavery? Sovereignty?
That's risky. Resistance is your only tangible choice. Israel uses the resistance as an excuse to kill and press their thumb harder on the Palestinians. The Palestinians see this as a threat to their very existence, and resist harder. Israel points and says, "See! They're animals!" and uses this as an excuse to press down harder on them in a cycle.
Both sides are teaching their children that the other side is evil. Essentially, I think Israel does not ideologically like the idea of peace with Palestinians where they gain sovereignty - therefore Israel ends up facilitating their own terrorism.
I know this was long - but so that we're not debating shadows. If you truly find that I've said something here historically inaccurate (beyond my opinion/interpretations of actions), feel free to say so.
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You are right: I don’t want to “debate” this. We live in a world where war crimes have been committed against Israel for seventy years without outrage, but when Israel’s 9/11 happens and they lose their schnizitt we all act shocked.
I do not condone war crimes, but I also am not going to say that Israel is evil for finally having had enough. The double standard is astounding.
I am saddened that you believe Israel acts without faith. Actual historical record plainly shows the opposite to be true — Israel has, at every opportunity, endeavored to negotiate peaceful relationships.
Their ONE proviso — stop murdering Israelis.
And the result is always the same: an increase in violence against Israel and Jewish people in general. To say that the opposite has ever been true is bald-faced propaganda.
And I feel I cannot stay silent when anti-Israel rhetoric is replicated in my presence. Hatred needs to be pointed out — those who have been misled may learn, and those who seek to spread the hatred will not get their kicks without at least one person standing up to point it out and say “nope”.
The flip-the-script hypocrisy is the same BS that you have spoken against when used by today’sFascist Republican party.
If you really want to know more about it I can recommend a number of good resources, but as it is I don’t really care to Prove I’m Right On The Internet™.
https://xkcd.com/386/
You’re a grown man and I have found that you are amazingly willing to recognize when you lack knowledge and learn on your own time. This is a character trait I like about you and will happily leave it at that.
I do not condone war crimes, but I also am not going to say that Israel is evil for finally having had enough. The double standard is astounding.
I am saddened that you believe Israel acts without faith. Actual historical record plainly shows the opposite to be true — Israel has, at every opportunity, endeavored to negotiate peaceful relationships.
Their ONE proviso — stop murdering Israelis.
And the result is always the same: an increase in violence against Israel and Jewish people in general. To say that the opposite has ever been true is bald-faced propaganda.
And I feel I cannot stay silent when anti-Israel rhetoric is replicated in my presence. Hatred needs to be pointed out — those who have been misled may learn, and those who seek to spread the hatred will not get their kicks without at least one person standing up to point it out and say “nope”.
The flip-the-script hypocrisy is the same BS that you have spoken against when used by today’s
If you really want to know more about it I can recommend a number of good resources, but as it is I don’t really care to Prove I’m Right On The Internet™.
https://xkcd.com/386/
You’re a grown man and I have found that you are amazingly willing to recognize when you lack knowledge and learn on your own time. This is a character trait I like about you and will happily leave it at that.
(posted this before reading your latest post, apologies)
> Interests in the Middle East align to the point that the US supports Israel, and Israel has every right to exist, but it has been corrupted by Netanyahu and his cronies as much as we are corrupt by corporate power interests.
This is the part I think needs more explanation, because you get into a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. Why do interests in the Middle East align to the point that the US supports Israel? Well, because of pro-Israel lobbying groups like AIPAC*, which strongly influence US policy in favor of Israel, at the cost of other countries in the Middle East. I agree Netanyahu has certainly corrupted something, but it seems like we're just doing what Israel wants; whether that's because of Netanyahu or not isn't really the point to me. But more importantly, I don't think this support for Israel helps the US. AIPAC was for the Iraq war, and we let Netanyahu speak in front of Congress and tell us that we should topple half a dozen Middle Eastern regimes because they pose a threat to Israel. Unfortunately, we listened to him, and destabilized the Middle East at behest of him.
*and other wealthy donors pushing for war with Iran
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/C3gz9am0bRI
> Maybe we should finally chuck him and his cronies in prison for starting a war without Congress’s approval, against the will of the people.
Sure! All for it! But the reality is we haven't had a "true" Congress-approved war since WWII. And I only think Trump got elected a second time precisely because of Israel-related promises and actions he's made.
I do wonder at what point historians will say "X marked the beginning of WWIII". Or will it just turn into Oceania where the world is just always at war, but it's the norm.
> Interests in the Middle East align to the point that the US supports Israel, and Israel has every right to exist, but it has been corrupted by Netanyahu and his cronies as much as we are corrupt by corporate power interests.
This is the part I think needs more explanation, because you get into a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem. Why do interests in the Middle East align to the point that the US supports Israel? Well, because of pro-Israel lobbying groups like AIPAC*, which strongly influence US policy in favor of Israel, at the cost of other countries in the Middle East. I agree Netanyahu has certainly corrupted something, but it seems like we're just doing what Israel wants; whether that's because of Netanyahu or not isn't really the point to me. But more importantly, I don't think this support for Israel helps the US. AIPAC was for the Iraq war, and we let Netanyahu speak in front of Congress and tell us that we should topple half a dozen Middle Eastern regimes because they pose a threat to Israel. Unfortunately, we listened to him, and destabilized the Middle East at behest of him.
*and other wealthy donors pushing for war with Iran
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/C3gz9am0bRI
> Maybe we should finally chuck him and his cronies in prison for starting a war without Congress’s approval, against the will of the people.
Sure! All for it! But the reality is we haven't had a "true" Congress-approved war since WWII. And I only think Trump got elected a second time precisely because of Israel-related promises and actions he's made.
I do wonder at what point historians will say "X marked the beginning of WWIII". Or will it just turn into Oceania where the world is just always at war, but it's the norm.
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| You are right: I don’t want to “debate” this |
I've often been wrong about things but I knew that I'm probably missing something. For example, trans people and other issues - but no one was willing to debate them so I could see their perspective.
I personally think that nothing should be beyond the realm of debate as long as it's in good faith.
| I do not condone war crimes, but I also am not going to say that Israel is evil for finally having had enough. The double standard is astounding. |
I would agree there's some double standards - but I disagree with the sentiment around it.
People will say that Israel is expected to abide by some rule-set that its enemies do not. That's true, because Israel wants to be treated like a modern nation that can sit alongside the U.S. and Europe.
Palestinians, on the other hand, don't even have a country. There are no rules of engagement to speak of - hence why they're called terrorists.
| I am saddened that you believe Israel acts without faith. Actual historical record plainly shows the opposite to be true — Israel has, at every opportunity, endeavored to negotiate peaceful relationships. |
Again, just having seen how Israel negotiates - they have always been slimy. They use "reasonableness" traps where they do something that seems reasonable on the surface, but clearly is meant to illicit a predictable outcome.
For example, have long negotiations that come to some kind of agreeable terms, but finalize nothing, leave details for later, have no guarantees Israel will honor the terms - but expect acceptance of the deal and disarmament now.
Ofc not to mention... precision striking the negotiators 💀.
| Their ONE proviso — stop murdering Israelis. |
I think this shows a lot about where you're coming from. My question is, proviso for what? To just stop killing them directly? What happens after?
The idea that Palestinians are fighting for no reason is a bit preposterous. If ending the fighting would grant them something, they would do it. The idea that they'd be allowed their own country if they just stopped fighting is insane.
Maybe you'd say that having your own country isn't a battle worth fighting for? I'd disagree.
| the result is always the same: an increase in violence against Israel and Jewish people in general |
This is where a lot of the meat of the debate would be. I would argue that when resistance calms, Israel gets comfortable with the situation. If there was no fighting, why wouldn't Israel just keep Palestinians in the exact same situation forever? Keep them in their little areas and control their economies and their future. They're not fighting it, so why would I stop?
I think its clear propaganda when Israel makes it out to be so simple, "we don't want to fight or kill anyone, but we have to defend themselves". Meanwhile, they ignore the geopolitical history of the area, the wants of the people, and maintain control over them.
Some things are worth fighting for. Israel never makes statements on how they intend to bring peace, they always speak of it as if its up to everyone else to simply accept Israel and broker peace on whatever terms Israel wants.
| I feel I cannot stay silent when anti-Israel rhetoric is replicated in my presence |
If any of my facts here have been incorrect at any time, I would love for them to be corrected. It's difficult to find anyone knowledgeable about this topic who is willing to debate.
| The flip-the-script hypocrisy is the same BS that you have spoken against when used by today’s Fascist Republican party. |
Well we can't say, "this type of rhetoric has been used by X therefore this rhetoric is always wrong." The issue will almost always be the merits of the argument. Sometimes flipping the script is necessary because we've been too comfortable in a particular narrative that isn't the most accurate way to view the situation.
| If you really want to know more about it I can recommend a number of good resources |
Feel free too, I would look into them.
| You’re a grown man and I have found that you are amazingly willing to recognize when you lack knowledge and learn on your own time. This is a character trait I like about you and will happily leave it at that. |
I find debate to be the quickest path to recognizing flaws in logic and learning. That's when your positions are actually challenged and tested.
In this case, I've done research and reached the most logical conclusions I could given what I know. If your sources can show things like:
• Hamas being unwilling to negotiate peace
• Palestinians having no just-cause for resistance
• Hamas/Palestinians rejecting clearly established and reasonable terms that would be enforced by 3rd party (which I believe... has never happened)
• Israel making good faith attempts at peace
• Israel engaging in good faith attempts to limit causalities to combatants only
• Israel making good faith attempts to let supplies/aid through
• Etc..
Then I can change some of my views regarding this situation.
The main issue with peace talks is that Israel has the power in the dynamic. Anything negotiated could be completely broken by Israel if they don't place some guarentees. This is why it's difficult for Palestinians/Hamas to agree to disarm. Once you disarm, you are at the full mercy to your enemy who no longer has any reason to keep their word.
This is one of the main reasons the 2008 Olmert Offer fell through, why would Olmert's successor have any reason to abide by it?
| Netanyahu speak in front of Congress and tell us that we should topple half a dozen Middle Eastern regimes because they pose a threat to Israel. |
To be fair, unless Israel controls the world, Israel might always be attacked by someone else. Therefore, Israel should control the world for national security reasons.
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I debated how I wanted to answer. And I am going to divest myself of this conversation. Zapshe, you have already made up your mind. You are asking me to change it, claiming you have already done your own research.
I don’t know what sources you are reading, but they are clearly anti-semetic, whether you accept that or not.
You bring up the specific example of the Olmert’s Realignment Plan, and characterize it in an absolutely one-sided way. If you were to have even looked it up on Wikipedia, a site known to be embattled when it comes to hot-button issues, you would have seen that even it contradicts your characterizations of the peace talks failing because of Israel’s “slimy” behavior.
The truth is that Olmert offered concessions so extraordinary that even Israeli citizens and Jewish people around the world disliked it to the point that the outcry made common international news:
• A Palestinian state
• Weaponized, independent Palestinian police
• Palestinian control over Palestinion-resident-majority parts of Israel!
• Palestinian-controlled passage between the West Bank and Gaza
• Full, joint administration of sites sacred to all Abrahamic faiths!!!1!
• Release of the Palestinian border with Jordan to international forces under the direction of Palestinian authorities
• Removal of Israeli people from over 93% of the West Bank and fair redistribution of land to the pre-1967 Israeli borders
• All with the proviso that Israel be permitted to defend itself and Palestine not align itself with anti-Israel military forces on Israel’s doorstep.
Abbas not only rejected these inconceivably generous conditions, he went out of his way to stir up violence from surrounding Arab states because of them.
Who the hell is being slimy here?
And at this point I am unwilling to pretend we’re having a polite, reasonable discussion about points of view or facts in dispute. The facts are clear and indisputable except by those with an agenda fueled by anti-Israeli BS. Your head’s on crooked and you can’t or won’t see it and I have no desire to continue this discussion. It isn’t my life’s mission to convince anyone that the whole world seeks Israel’s destruction, and were it not for the US it would have already been wiped from the map.
I’ll give them a little leeway about being aholes to the aholes who’ve been trying to murder them since before 1948.
I don’t know what sources you are reading, but they are clearly anti-semetic, whether you accept that or not.
You bring up the specific example of the Olmert’s Realignment Plan, and characterize it in an absolutely one-sided way. If you were to have even looked it up on Wikipedia, a site known to be embattled when it comes to hot-button issues, you would have seen that even it contradicts your characterizations of the peace talks failing because of Israel’s “slimy” behavior.
The truth is that Olmert offered concessions so extraordinary that even Israeli citizens and Jewish people around the world disliked it to the point that the outcry made common international news:
• A Palestinian state
• Weaponized, independent Palestinian police
• Palestinian control over Palestinion-resident-majority parts of Israel!
• Palestinian-controlled passage between the West Bank and Gaza
• Full, joint administration of sites sacred to all Abrahamic faiths!!!1!
• Release of the Palestinian border with Jordan to international forces under the direction of Palestinian authorities
• Removal of Israeli people from over 93% of the West Bank and fair redistribution of land to the pre-1967 Israeli borders
• All with the proviso that Israel be permitted to defend itself and Palestine not align itself with anti-Israel military forces on Israel’s doorstep.
Abbas not only rejected these inconceivably generous conditions, he went out of his way to stir up violence from surrounding Arab states because of them.
Who the hell is being slimy here?
And at this point I am unwilling to pretend we’re having a polite, reasonable discussion about points of view or facts in dispute. The facts are clear and indisputable except by those with an agenda fueled by anti-Israeli BS. Your head’s on crooked and you can’t or won’t see it and I have no desire to continue this discussion. It isn’t my life’s mission to convince anyone that the whole world seeks Israel’s destruction, and were it not for the US it would have already been wiped from the map.
I’ll give them a little leeway about being aholes to the aholes who’ve been trying to murder them since before 1948.
| I don’t know what sources you are reading, but they are clearly anti-semetic, whether you accept that or not. |
Well facts can't be anti-semetic, so I'm asking what facts I have wrong.
Of course, my interpretation of the facts can be brought into question (whether Israel is operating in bath faith or not). I have not read that anywhere, those are my interpretations from the facts.
| You bring up the specific example of the Olmert’s Realignment Plan, and characterize it in an absolutely one-sided way. If you were to have even looked it up on Wikipedia, a site known to be embattled when it comes to hot-button issues, you would have seen that even it contradicts your characterizations of the peace talks failing because of Israel’s “slimy” behavior. |
I read the wiki as you pointed out. There was a citation that lead to:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-never-said-no-to-2008-peace-deal-says-former-pm-olmert/
Nothing on the wiki or this clearly Israeli-bias source contradicts what I've said.
Olmert gave a good deal that I believe would have been a path to peace - but pressured Abbas to accept immediately and without time to look at the maps.
The quote from Olmert on the same link is, "“Not only did he not say no — the whole rumor about him rejecting it flatly is untrue.. he never ever said no to this plan.”
“What he actually said to me was this plan sounds very impressive, it sounds very serious… He was excited and very open-minded to the option of making this agreement. But he said, you know, I’m not an expert on maps. How can I sign something before I show it to the experts on our side to examine it?”"
Then Israel lover Elliott Abrams comes in and says, "Those who wish to blame Israel for the continuing lack of progress in achieving a comprehensive peace agreement will presumably pay no attention to this interview, but the facts are in" and "Many anti-Israel critics claim that if only Israel withdrew to 1967 borders, that would solve the conflict and Mr. Olmert’s peace plan in 2008 was pretty much the closest thing to exactly that, which then necessitates the question, why wasn’t it taken up?"
A complete twist of the narrative - and contradicts Olmert's own account where he says, "Mahmoud Abbas is a very qualified gentleman, a decent, peace-loving person. I like him, I trust him, I would’ve made peace with him."
But then I wonder, why did Abbas have to accept it in that exact moment? This is not how good faith deals are done, we all know this. The issues are many: Olmert was unpopular, the terms Olmert were negotiating were unpopular (and I don't know if it would have gotten ratified in government), and Olmert was leaving - and the incoming Netanyahu had no appetite for such a deal.
Moreover, Hamas has openly and loudly been willing to negotiate around 1967 borders - but negotiations have never occurred.
Without adequate time for Olmert to actually get this stuff passed his government and begin implementation, Netanyahu would have significant leeway to rip up the deal entirely or, worse, drag his feet and poke holes in the peace process.
| The truth is that Olmert offered concessions so extraordinary |
Yea, keyword is offered - momentarily at that. Would such an offer not bring you pause? Would you not require time to look over the details? Ask experts?
Do we have any terms of this deal that we know about other than what was stated verbally by these men later in public?
Which party does vagueness or ambiguity in the terms help? The weaker or stronger party?
When it comes to any kind of security or guarantees that Israel would keep its side of the deal - that exists even less when the deal is secretly reached. No publicity, no publicly available deal/terms to hold Israel accountable to, just Olmert's word.
| Weaponized, independent Palestinian police |
Yea, police, not military. Demilitirization is a very reasonable thing to ask for. Taking away a competent police force would be completely unreasonable.
| Abbas not only rejected these inconceivably generous conditions, he went out of his way to stir up violence from surrounding Arab states because of them. |
Let's examine this claim under the facts. Abbas did not reject the deal - as Olmert himself is quoted saying. The conditions being "generous" is a bit subjective, I will admit it sounds like a fair and good deal. If you view Palestinians as "bad", then you must be a generous God to offer them so much!
Abbas stirring up violence..? I'm not sure where you got this from. Abbas constantly wanted to negotiate as far as I know, and people saw him as weak because he was never getting any concessions from Israel.
You'll say Olmert's offer is a huge concession - sure.. if it had ever come to pass. We don't know what would have happened - even if we have strong feelings about it.
| And at this point I am unwilling to pretend we’re having a polite, reasonable discussion about points of view or facts in dispute. The facts are clear and indisputable except by those with an agenda fueled by anti-Israeli BS |
To be clear, I started my research only knowing this, "The middle east is full of fighting, and its usually over religion so probably pretty stupid."
You will not find me calling for the destruction of Israel. But Israel has shown a tendency, especially with Netanyahu, to simply do what they like. This war with Iran is completely ideological, there's no valid argument that Israel actually needs to invade Iran for its security. If this was not purely ideologically driven - they would not have supported Trump ripping up the nuclear deal. They were itching for war with Iran.
Israel cannot be allowed to continue operating this way. The only reason it can is because of the U.S.
| It isn’t my life’s mission to convince anyone that the whole world seeks Israel’s destruction, and were it not for the US it would have already been wiped from the map. |
Almost every country ever founded has been wiped off the map. We were just talking about the end of the ottoman empire as the beginning to the whole saga. The question is, is there a valid U.S.-focused reason to keep this country from dealing with that issue itself?
If we go via humanitarian reasons instead, then we're getting into personal feelings that could justify us going into war all over the world.
Israel is locked in a cycle with Palestinians - a deadly one. As the side holding most of the power in the dynamic, Israel has responsibility to try and end this - but they go out of their way not to.
I would argue some things are worth going to war over. If we were blockaded and faced with the conditions Palestinians face while under Israeli control - we would surely violently rebel.
Again, if my facts are wrong then obviously I will correct them. But our disagreement may come down to ideological differences that we might not be able to settle without deeper philosophical analysis of our positions (what do we personally value? what are things worth fighting for? when can an agent be held morally accountable for their actions? etc.).
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