Adoption by Homosexual Couples

[Disch]

BHX Specter wrote:

[They] are trying to take religion out of Christmas (Happy Holidays)

Nobody is taking religion out of Christmas. That's right-wing propaganda. Businesses say "Happy Holidays" because they want to include celebrations of denominations other than Christianity. Despite what many would have you believe... Christianity is not the only religion practiced in the USA.

Flip this around... what if all businesses started saying "Happy Hanukkah" instead of "Merry Christmas"? You can bet a lot of people would flip out.

But whatever... talk about a tangent.

BHX Spetcer wrote:

Sadly, some of my friends, when I posted this hypothetical question to Facebook, said they would disown them.

Some of your friends are assholes.

If it were me in that situation, I'd lie and say I was gay (or at least bi) and gauge their actual reaction, rather than a hypothetical one. If they really are assholes and don't want to be my friend anymore, then fuck them. I wouldn't want them in my life anyway.

One day this will all no longer be a topic of discussion. In some states it was illegal to have interracial marriages even into the 90s. That passed, and so to will this.

I agree. In fact it's plainly obvious that the tides have already turned. The hold-outs that are clinging to "traditional values" are akin to those people in the 50s that were protesting interracial integration of schools.

Quite frankly I'm surprised it's even a topic of discussion now.

NT3 wrote:

However, I am not fine with homosexual marriage: Marriage is a Christian thing

No it's not. Not at all.

Virtually every popular religion has its own version/concept of marriage. The government also has a legal definition of marriage. Marriage is not by any means a strictly Christian concept or practice.

In fact... the concept of marriage predates Christianity:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History_of_marriage

[iAk3T05o]

Predates Christianity where? All i see is "the bible", "in the bible" etc. They were the first so what could predate them.

[Disch]

While the institution of marriage pre-dates recorded history[citation needed], many cultures have legends concerning the origins of marriage. The way in which a marriage is conducted and its rules and ramifications has changed over time, as has the institution itself, depending on the culture or demographic of the time.[251]

A wife was seen as being of high value, and was therefore, usually, carefully looked after.[235][236] Early nomadic communities in the middle east practised a form of marriage known as beena, in which a wife would own a tent of her own, within which she retains complete independence from her husband;[252] this principle appears to survive in parts of early Israelite society, as some early passages of the Bible appear to portray certain wives as each owning a tent as a personal possession

Note that Early nomadic communities in the middle east predate Christianity, and their cultures "carried into" the early Israelite era.

The reference to the Bible here shows that earlier traditions carried into and/or influenced Christian practices.

[AceDawg45]

I am a little late to post on this I see, since there are already four pages of stuff. But, I just wanted to say, I am on your side. As an athiest (I swear if someone starts something about it...), I think not to care about that kind of stuff. I am what I call a "homophobe - phobe", or one who hates homophobes. Okay, maybe not hate, but you know.

Anyway, The reason for this is because the majority of people in this country are Christians, and at least half of them are real serious about their religion. Well, [usually] when someone is real serious about their religion, they happen to memorize the entire scripture of the religion (Torah, Bible, Koran, etc.). And when they memorize that, they note the "Gay is bad" part and make a huge deal of it. Then, we have the liberals in the government who think like this and make a big deal out of it, even though this country is built on the "freedom" stated in the 1st Amendment (freedom of religion). When this happens, well, they are running the country, so as long as it passes the legislation, it is a go.

I am also 13, like you, and became athiest when people in my school started stating stuff from the Bible and I started to try and find reason with it all, and it just did not make sense to me. Now, that doesn't mean I hate anybody who believes in God, in fact, I respect you. You guys have hope in your life, and that is something athiests don't believe in. I mean hope about afterlife, not just hope itself, of course. But before anyone scowls or reprimands me about my belief, I just want to say I respect yours, so please respect mine.

And if you are homosexual, well, go ahead. I don't mind a single bit. If you want to adopt children with your lover, go ahead. I do not mind.

I really would like to blame programming for being athiest, because ever since I began doing it, I started to think logically, and my grades went up from a 89 average to a 99 average. And I like being athiest and programming, and I sure as hell like it better than religion -- just saying.

P.S: Just, one of the things that got me on the "no god bus" was this very "no gay" topic. If you Christians believe to "respect your neighbor" and to forgive everyone, then why is it that you hate gays? They are your neighbors and are normal people, just like the rest of us. Well, you just make yourselves hippocrits. Anyway, if you don't mind me, I am gonna go no life Civilization 5. G'bye!

[Disch]

Christians teachings are confusing, even to Christians. You have New Testament stuff with Jesus preaching about love, forgiveness and giving. But then you have the Old Testament stuff which is really where all the negativity comes from.

In particular, the "anti-gay" stuff comes from the Old Testament where it actually says the sinners should be put to death and that their death is their own fault (I actually quoted it earlier in this thread).

What confuses me is that Christianity is supposed to be about the teachings of Christ... and Christ's teachings were all about forgiveness... he died so that all sins could be forgiven. I mean that's the foundational corner-stone of the entire faith.

With that in mind, I really don't understand why so many (read: of course not all, but a significant number of) Christians continue their persecution. If Christ were alive today, do they really think he would oppose same sex marriages? Everything that has ever been written about him suggests he would do nothing but wish people well and do whatever he could to help them be safe and happy. That's what he did. He never judged.

Case in point, adultery is also a sin, but when a woman was to be stoned to death for adultery, Jesus put a stop to it. There's that famous quote "may he who is without sin cast the first stone"... everyone knows that quote. I'm not even Christian and I know it. The moral of the story is that you shouldn't care/judge people for their sins, but rather should be accepting and forgiving. That's what Jesus was all about.

Fastforward to today, where you have BHX talking about how he has friends who would disown their own children for coming out? They somehow think that's what Jesus would want? It's insane and unbearably cruel.

You have people screaming "God hates gays", when the bible says nothing of the sort, and I think it even says the exact opposite: that God loves everyone.


I think something happened to Christianity in the US where it got intermingled and distorted by politics somehow. I don't think the problem is with Christianity... it's just in people's attitudes

[AceDawg45]

To me, religion just doesn't make sense. People just believe stuff a guy says, and it becomes a philosophy. There are... what? 4 different versions of Christian? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, East Orthodox? I understand the need for it thousands of years ago with Greeks and Romans. They did not have the science to explain things, so they made gods for it.

Example: Why do earthquakes happen? A: Poseidon, the God of Sea and Earthquakes, cause it.

Now, we have brilliant people and science that explains earthquakes: Seismic activity in the ground and tectonic plates with transform boundaries. I like the idea of love everyone, but that just isn't possible for me to never antagonize a single person in my life.

[giblit]

There are... what? 4 different versions of Christian? Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, East Orthodox?

a lot more than that...

[BHX]

Wikipedia wrote:

there are reported to be approximately 41,000 Christian denominations (figure includes overlap between countries), many of which cannot be verified to be significant

Considering all the wars fought in God's name, how are we still alive with that many variants?

[giblit]

Because many of them are the same religion but they change one little thing so they have to call it another religion.

[Ispil]

Note, NT3- As of now, in the United States, marriage is a legal thing. Go down to the courthouse, sign a few documents stating that there is a legal pact between two parties to share ownership of anything owned in this duration, and to share a tax burden. Whether you make marriage religious or not doesn't matter here. It is a legal contract which, frankly, shouldn't really consider the gender of both parties. As long as they can both pay taxes, all is well in the legal world.

[iAk3T05o]

@acedawg: it's interesting how science tries to explain everything. What would be the explaination for the Red Sea dividing?

[AceDawg45]

@Nathan2222You realize that was a story written like 3000 years ago right? You are just going to believe something that no one has ever even seen except the person who says he did (writer of the bible)?

[iAk3T05o]

Writers of the bible.
You think someone stood up one day and thought about a device to check earthquakes without an external force? He knew man needed a way to check it but that didn't mean we needed to stop it. Afterall he once destroyed everything in the world with flood except Noah, his family and the male and female of every animal and decided not to again which is why we have rainbows.
Everyone has their purpose on earth.
(the only natural disaster i've experienced is none.)
If you are arguing about not seeing something, what do you think causes the thing that causes the thing that causes earthquakes. You know earthquakes occur but you've never seen the thing that causes the thing that causes the thing that causes earthquakes.
I certainly believe in it and it's better than believing in all that logic stuff. I guess you believe man is an evolution of monkeys/chimpanzees, well i don't because we were created in his own image and likeness.

[BHX]

Nathan2222 wrote:

Everyone has their purpose on earth.

That is debatable.

[Disch]

Nathan2222 wrote:

I guess you believe man is an evolution of monkeys/chimpanzees

More bad-mouthing of evolution by someone who clearly does not understand anything about evolution.

Evolution does not say people evolved from monkies/chimpanzees. If you're going to argue against something, you should at least try to learn a little bit about it so you sound like you know what you're talking about.


But this is all a big tangent. I didn't want to turn this into a science vs. religion debate. I've stated many times in the past that the two are not mutually exclusive. You can be a religious scientist.

[TwilightSpectre]

You are just going to believe something that no one has ever even seen except the person who says he did (writer of the bible)?

Don't forget the entire Israeli nation. They were there too. And the Egyptian Army.

@Ipsil
I didn't realise that - I don't live in America (or have much connection to it at all).

@Disch
I did realize that marriage is not just a Christian thing. It is obviously a Jewish thing as well, and I'm pretty sure that there are people apart from the Israeli that are mentioned as being married in the Bible. Nevertheless, I shall qualify my statement: I don't believe that a religious marriage should be between anything other than a man and a woman.

[N36fSL3A]

Nathan2222 wrote:

@fredbill: "wife" being the keyword.

And that went right over your head.

You think someone stood up one day and thought about a device to check earthquakes without an external force? He knew man needed a way to check it but that didn't mean we needed to stop it. Afterall he once destroyed everything in the world with flood except Noah, his family and the male and female of every animal and decided not to again which is why we have rainbows.

Can't tell if a troll or not.

AceDawg45 wrote:

P.S: Just, one of the things that got me on the "no god bus" was this very "no gay" topic. If you Christians believe to "respect your neighbor" and to forgive everyone, then why is it that you hate gays? They are your neighbors and are normal people, just like the rest of us. Well, you just make yourselves hippocrits. Anyway, if you don't mind me, I am gonna go no life Civilization 5. G'bye!

Not all Christians hate gays. You're just an ignorant individual believing all the lies and propaganda that a handful of Atheists believe. Just because a few Christians are extremists doesn't mean others are.

[Disch]

NT3 wrote:

I don't believe that a religious marriage should be between anything other than a man and a woman.

That's fine. As long as it's still recognized by the government as a legal arrangement and the couple is provided the same legal benefits as a heterosexual couple then that's all that matters in my book.

Whatever religion you practice can have whatever views it wants on the subject. I'm just saying the government shouldn't make the same distinctions.

[N36fSL3A]

^This.

I think the United States government is being held back on it's early ties with Christianity, and it needs to break them quick.

Personally, I'm a Christian, but others may not be. It isn't fair to force them to do what we like just because they're in the minority. This is comparable to the early half of the 60's, when black people couldn't do certain things just because of their skin color.

[iAk3T05o]

The only marriage i know is between a biological male and a biological female