So we Live in a Black Hole...

[Computergeek01]

The universe would have to go on forever. If it stopped at one point, wouldn't there have to be something on the other side?

On the other side of what? If the universe is a four dimensional sphere where one end point in any dimension can't be unarbitrarily defined then how would you know when to say it has stopped? I'm just goading you of course, I think this whole thread is ridiculous. We're mostly Comp Sci nerds here, this is as silly as us discussing a cure for cancer.

[jwkNwA7f]

I said early

I 100% agree with the unedited post above mine.

, but this time it is different:
I 100% disagree with the unedited post above mine by sargon94.

Edit: not Computergeek01's

[naraku9333]

@cppprogrammer297
What exactly don't you agree with? The fact that evolution is proven science?

[jwkNwA7f]

@naraku9333 I don't disagree with all of evolution, just a big part of it. Also, about this:

I often wonder, are creationists serious about their beliefs? I mean... really.

and this:

Not believing in that shows either lack of knowledge or inability to understand the core concepts.

[Script Coder]

Fuck it, nothing can be proved.

Now you're getting it :P

It's selective breeding on a grand scale with the environment as the driving force. Random mutations occur, occasional they improve the chance of reproduction in the environment, statistics take over from there and they propagate. Not believing in that shows either lack of knowledge or inability to understand the core concepts.

Okay so pretending that the world (without living anything) is here (we don't care how for the time being) and we have got these inorganic particles that through some version of the Miller–Urey experiment are now organic amino acids.

Firstly the probability of these amino acids forming even the most basic cell (only a nucleus, and other essential organelles), is very slim. Next you want to tell me that these cells somehow magically though that if they stuck together they would be better off.

Next you want to tell me that these cells somehow begin mutating from "stem" cells into specialised cells, that began to form incredibly complex systems. And all this is assuming the thing is still asexual, because if it is not the chances of there being another thing that is equally mutated is minuscule.

Now somehow this thing decided that life on land would be way more prosperous and so it grows legs and lungs. And I am going to stop here.

Also: If we came from apes, why are there still apes?

[jwkNwA7f]

Also: If we came from apes, why are there still apes?

Good point.

Edit: almost none of the other things they said that evolved into apes don't exist.

[Computergeek01]

@ naraku9333: I'm feeling antagonistic today so I'll bite, and just to pull the rug out from under you I won't even mention religion. The assertion that a species survives simply by achieving superiority through random mutation and social selection directly contradicts the fact that viruses, who mutate faster then most other organisms so make an ideal candidate to study, don't have the mental facilities to make those kind of social decisions on their own. Yet the individual species of viruses always seem to mutate toward an end that benefits their survival as a whole. Given that reproduction is an expensive process and everything lives with a finite amount of resources I think that r/K selection theory is out, so go ahead and explain that one.

EDIT: We didn't come from apes, we came from a much more aggressive intermediate species which we wiped off the face of this earth. Nice try though.

[Disch]

Script Coder:

You are doing the age old "argue against Evolution by stating misconceptions about evolution".

Very little/none of what you said has anything to do with evolution. Allow me to correct you on a two glaring points:

1) Evolution does not attempt to explain how life was created, it attempts to explain how life changes.

2) Humans did not evolve from apes. Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor


But I really need to stop reading this thread while at work....

[jwkNwA7f]

Oh, one more thing, if we did "evolve from apes" (which we didn't) then why didn't us humans start evolving like every thing else that evolutionist say they did.

Edit:

But I really need to stop reading this thread while at work....

I really do to. I was planning on working on my game engine today, but I have been reading this thread all day instead.

[naraku9333]

That doesn't explain anything. You either understand how evolution works or you don't, I have a feeling you don't.

No one is telling you not to believe in your god, but use your brain, don't blindly follow because the bible says it's so. The bible also says the earth is ~6000 years old and humans and dinosaurs occupied the same time frame, do you believe this even though carbon dating disproves it?

[Script Coder]

@Disch
Fair enough, however if we all descend from a common ancestor: Was it a land/air/sea animal? How did it "evolve" to the other two? ("Hey you see that big blue thing that stretches all the way from there to there, I want to be in it" .... a few generations later .... "I'm flying!" ... yeah, no) (or better yet: "Maybe if I try and hold my breath for long enough under this wet stuff, my great great great grandchildren will be able to breath in it").

[Disch]

Oh, one more thing, if we did "evolve from apes" (which we didn't)

I know we didn't. See the post I just made (and which you quoted).

Humans did not evolve from apes. Humans and apes evolved from a common ancestor.

then why didn't us humans start evolving like every thing else that evolutionist say they did.

Err... we did?

You should take a class on paleontology. It's fascinating stuff.


Evolution was not just pulled out of someone's ass. There's a LOT of evidence to suggest it's true. Granted the evidence suggests it's true and doesn't necessarily prove it's true... but if you study the factual evidence you'll begin to see why it's so widely accepted.

[Computergeek01]

I didn't mention religion, in fact I specifically said I wouldn't so don't go off topic with blind assumptions. Also, I know that it doesn't explain anything I was asking you to explain that phenomenon. Please don't get upset that someone is questioning the beliefs you so blindly follow.

[Script Coder]

No one is telling you not to believe in your god

Ah, humility. Thank you :)

don't blindly follow because the bible says it's so

Trust me, I follow nothing blindly. I would gladly give you my logical understanding of any topic whatsoever.
For example:

do you believe this even though carbon dating disproves it?

In the Bible, it states that God created the earth in seven days. God did not state how long a day was. Now if you refuse to accept that then don't, I have another explanation. Who is to say god did not put 3 million year old Carbon here? Maybe because it has less radio-active decay it could be better for us?

[jwkNwA7f]

Actually, the Bible does not say the earth is ~6000 years old. There are many Christians who have estimated that, but really, I don't think it is only 6000 years old. I do believe that humans and dinosaurs live in the same time frame. The Bible says that we were created within a few days after the dinosaurs. It also says that no animals ate meat until after the world wide flood, which soon after that they died off. There have been several occurrences of where people were talking about dinosaurs in the Bible. They did not call them dinosaurs because the word dinosaur didn't exist until approximately 1841.

Also I agree with Script Coder's unedited post above mine.

Edit: Well the one that starts out @Disch.

Edit 2: @Disch that is what I have always been taught.

Edit 3: God didn't say how long a day was though.

[Catfish4]

Who is to say god did not put 3 million year old Carbon here?

God the prankster!

[Disch]

Also

God did not write the Bible. Even most Christians accept this. The Bible was written by men. Note: men plural, as in more than one. This is why some written parts slightly contradict other written parts.

Furthermore, the Bible was translated and retranslated numerous times.

I don't know if you've ever played "telephone" as a kid, but the farther removed you get from a source, the more likely that information is to be distorted.


For the Bible to be the infallible word of God, you have to believe at least the following two points are true:

1) None of the authors tinted their writings with their own interpretation/bias, but rather were strictly doing factual reporting. More than that, for it to be the word of God, they had to have been little more than transcribers... just writing down what God said as he spoke to them. Considering how much gender bias is in the book, I find this extremely hard to believe.

2) The translators did not lose or misinterpret anything in the translation. Considering how this is still a problem with translators today, I find it difficult to believe they got it right hundreds of years ago when the KJV was translated.



But maybe you have more faith in those peoples' abilities than I do.


EDIT:

cppprogrammer wrote:

Actually, the Bible does not say the earth is ~6000 years old.

Yes, I was going to mention this as well. You are correct.

Edit 2: @Disch that [humans evolving from apes] is what I have always been taught.

I'm shocked... you mean... as a Christian child, you were mislead about evolution? *gasp*

Note my sarcasm here... as this is exactly the point I've been trying to make this entire time. Perpetuation of ignorance.


EDIT AGAIN:

In fact... the force behind perpetuating this ignorance is so strong in the US that we can't even teach the known facts of this topic in our public schools because the facts suggest an idea which contradicts religious dogma. It's absurd.

[jwkNwA7f]

God told them what to right in most cases. I do know that we don't have the full Bible today. A long time ago, people gathered and decided what was the most important. A lot of it was the men writing what they had wanted to, yes. And, yes, some of the data did probably get lost in the process, but not much.

Edit: @Disch's Edit 2: Okay, I can understand your reasoning there. But, I have seen this in other cases too. Like show on the history channel that say that is true.

[Superdude]

The Bible was inpired by God. It is infallible because of that. Not because of the people who wrote it. Nearly all the Bibles today, are translated from the Greek and other manuscripts. The ESV does not come from the NAS, which comes from the NKJ, which comes from the KJ. No.

But maybe you have more faith in those peoples' abilities than I do.

It is not their abilities. God worked through them to write the Bible.

EDIT: Name one(legitimate) time that the Bible contradicts its self and I will concede my point.

EDIT 2: And

In fact... the force behind perpetuating this ignorance is so strong in the US that we can't even teach the known facts of this topic in our public schools because the facts suggest an idea which contradicts religious dogma. It's absurd.

We Christians cannot teach anything in school about Creation because it is believed to be factually untrue.(In other words, it offends many people)

EDIT 3: Many Christian children today go do a public school that teaches evolution. They are not 'tainting' the evolutionists teaching.

[Disch]

EDIT: Name one(legitimate) time that the Bible contradicts its self and I will concede my point.

I will come back to this when I get home from work.

The Bible was inpired by God. It is infallible because of that.

You can say that about anything... including evolutionary theory.

EDIT: for example... the Crusades were heavily inspired by God. As were witch burnings. Were they infallible? Because they seem pretty evil to me.

Or maybe I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "inspired".


EDIT AGAIN:

The ESV does not come from the NAS, which comes from the NKJ, which comes from the KJ.

This raises an interesting question. Why is there a "new" King James version? Was there something wrong with the "old" King James version?

They were both in English, right? So it wasn't a translation.

So which one of them is infallible? How can you trust one over the other?

EDIT 3: Many Christian children today go do a public school that teaches evolution. They are not 'tainting' the evolutionists teaching.

In what country? AFAIK it's banned everywhere in the US. Or at least in most states.

I certainly never learned about it in school.